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peter225673
Powder Monkey

United Kingdom
26 Posts

Posted - 11 July 2017 :  09:58:54  Show Profile
i am think of changing the ageing T6354 in our huntsman 28 and i looking for some advice. i have been offered a pair of reconditioned Perkins sabre M215c and have a couple of Questions are these a suitable replacement, simple to swap over, fit the existing mounts,is there any thing with the M215c i need to worried about,can i use the existing shafts and props. while i am doing this i will also replace the gearboxes any suggestion for these would help.
Many thanks in advance Pete

Ben
Administrator

1269 Posts

Posted - 11 July 2017 :  13:26:50  Show Profile
I fitted M265Ti in Playtime, very similar. As far as I know the M215C is the same as the M225Ti, just different ratings. Several H28's running around with M225Ti in (Tom Pepper III, Star Hunter and H&N).

Very straight forward to fit in an H28, it as part of Sabre's plan to replace ageing 6.354's with these engines.

I had to modify the mounting brackets on the engines to suit, but the mounting brackets bolted to the hogs and the anti-vibration feet did not have to move.

Exhausts are simple as essentially in the same place.

Battery leads simple as starter motor in the same place.

BW boxes you have will be fine. Adapter plate on the BW is the same SAE3 bolt pattern. Always worth new clutch packs and seals in a BW if its out of the boat.

You will need new drive damper plates, call R&D marine, tell them the boat and engine/gearbox combination and they'll advise.

Your shafts if 1.25" will be fine. (very few run about on 1" which I would worry about)

Props will need more pitch, about 20" I would think, Paul Fairall will know.

If you need someone to fit them, Mike Wills would be a good man to ask, he's done several. Be cautious with your trial fitting, often the case that the boat differs one side to other!!

For trim, I would say fit them as far fwd up to the front of the engine box as you can, wetter but softer ride.

Essentially this is the easiest engine swap you could hope for the an results will delight you. Quieter, cleaner, less smelly. Faster. More frugal.

The only risk to look out for is the M215C and who you are buying them from.

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Ben
Administrator

1269 Posts

Posted - 11 July 2017 :  13:27:57  Show Profile
Forgot to add. Any questions, just ask.

I just checked the membership list and see you have Nauti Bear, Pete Grindey's old boat, I recall her having some unusual underwater exhaust arrangement?

Once all installed will be worth checking back pressure.
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peter225673
Powder Monkey

United Kingdom
26 Posts

Posted - 11 July 2017 :  14:01:43  Show Profile
Thanks for the information Ben yes it is Peter old boat exhaust are strange as they exit transom and exit under planing board they do have a small bypass pipe that exits on the transom. just find it a bit frustrating chasing the oil leaks the engines are reliable start first turn. i guess newer Perkins will be lighter and a bit more economical
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Ben
Administrator

1269 Posts

Posted - 11 July 2017 :  14:30:09  Show Profile
Yes, a bit lighter. Not much though.

I thought they we're about 10% more efficient. At 20 knots I went from 3mpg to 3.3mpg over a season.

Its the cleanness and lack of smell and smoke that transforms the boat.

I think I would be inclined to run new 3.5" straight through pipes out of the transom and make good the holes.

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Paul Fl
Captain

United Kingdom
452 Posts

Posted - 12 July 2017 :  23:06:00  Show Profile
Hi Pete. The Perkins-Sabres did have misleading names, eg my M225ti, are actually rated at 200HP NOT 225 HP despite the name. I have done a search and could only find M216c, but allegedly that puts out 216HP. So if yours IS 215HP you should be able to use a pitch of about 201/2" Pitch. I know of a 28 with Mermaid 212's and that runs 201/2" which gives about 32knots. I am running 19" Pitch with 200HP.
A problem with the Perk-Sabres is, if they have a Bosch rotary pump, the tickover reduces drastically when the engines have been run for a good half hour and thoroughly hot. So when you start from cold you have a tick over rpm of over 750rpm, that means a fair old lurch as you engage the gearbox. It obviously also means your minimum speed can break local speed limits, so you may need to engage just one engine until you either get past the speed restriction, or the engine has warmed up and slow down to 600rpm. This is one area the wider rev range of the Cummins helps, Max 3000rpm allows use of a lower pitch prop and gets rid of the problem of running very high pitch props. If your engines have in line pumps, the tickover problem may not be a problem. Perhaps Paul Foulston can add more to this.
It is better to be slightly under pitched than over, so maybe 20" will be better. Good luck and let us knlow how it goes.
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Paul Foulston
Captain

United Kingdom
227 Posts

Posted - 13 July 2017 :  09:15:10  Show Profile
Hi Paul

Perkins Sabre M215C and 225 are the same hardware, 215 is simply the commercial designation of the motor.

I was not aware of the issue with your M225's certainly not a normal characteristic of Bosch VE rotary fuel pumps and OP will be delighted with Bosch VE's on the 215's compared with CAV DPA's on 6.354's as VE governor runs at twice pump speed i.e engine speed which makes governor nice and responsive.

The VE used on Perkins Sabre 215/225 is a non KSB small hydraulic head version which according to Bosch tech data as being capable of 24kW per cylinder i.e max output of 144 kW for a 6 cylinder motor. The VE used on Cummins has KSB and a larger hydraulic head and we never see any idle variation between hot and cold.

The issue you may have is that Perkins set their calibrations set up using 25 Degree C test fuel and not the more normal 40 Degree C test standard. As the VE has no temperature compensation this may be the cause of your problem, addition of fuel coolers could solve your problem..
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Paul Fl
Captain

United Kingdom
452 Posts

Posted - 13 July 2017 :  12:50:41  Show Profile
Hi Paul, that is a great reply, and very helpful. I am certain the tickover is a temperature problem. Had I realised that before putting the engines back in I could have easily taken steps to reduce the problem. On the 225ti the fuel pipe from the lift pump is clamped against the block all the way round the engine until it gets to the filters, which also transfer heat to the fuel being bolted to the block.
As you say a fuel cooler would be a good move.
Pete if the engines are rated at 200HP then 19" or 19.5" Pitch is as much as you will get away with unless you have kept the boat very light.
Please keep us updated
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peter225673
Powder Monkey

United Kingdom
26 Posts

Posted - 13 July 2017 :  14:24:25  Show Profile
Thanks for all the information i want to complete the project over the coming winter so i am just trying to plan ahead, the Sabre engines look to be the easiest replacement with hopefully a increase in performance. My old engines have never let me down but i guess they are coming to the end of there serviceable life and probably need to come out of the boat to reconditioned so replacing them seem more practical.
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Paul Fl
Captain

United Kingdom
452 Posts

Posted - 13 July 2017 :  16:20:08  Show Profile
Pete, the old 6-354's are more likely to have all their ancillaries rot away before they wear out. I saw a note from a professional fisherman who reckoned that one could get 15000 hours from them if correctly maintained. However the extra grunt and cleaner running will make the change worthwhile, as well as improved fuel consumption.
Good to see some forward planning going in!
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Paul Foulston
Captain

United Kingdom
227 Posts

Posted - 14 July 2017 :  10:09:36  Show Profile
Pete, good move for one reason alone the CAV DPA pump with hydraulic governing was removed from parts support by Delphi years ago now, still parts in the system but situation will not get better and you can spend over 500 on pump shop sticking plaster work and converting to a mechanical DPA is big $$ I looked at it years ago.....
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peter225673
Powder Monkey

United Kingdom
26 Posts

Posted - 04 September 2019 :  17:39:48  Show Profile
Have had new engines fitted and have done a few trail runs top speed seems to be about 29 knots at 2400 rpm with the original props just wonder what we can do with the original props markings on prop is 16 3/4 x 16 3/4
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Scott Pett
Administrator

United Kingdom
725 Posts

Posted - 04 September 2019 :  20:55:14  Show Profile  Visit Scott Pett's Homepage
I would initially look at the boost pressure you are getting from the turbos.

The Garrett turbos have wastegates fitted which appear in some cases, but not all, start to dump pressure at about 11 psi or lower.

The fuel pump sees the lack of boost pressure and restricts the fuel, hence limiting the engine power.

You need about 15 psi of boost for 200 HP.

Mr. Fairall has a mod which is worth doing to the turbos to get around this. Ill let him explain.

With 16-3/4 pitch you should be slightly underpropped and achieving 2500 rpm or more.

Cheers
S
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